在西班牙薩拉戈薩大學任教的經濟學家培德洛•亞若傑阿古多（Pedro Arrojo-Agudo）運用他的專業知識，和一頭大怪物「國家水文計畫」奮力對抗，這是一項高達250億美元的計畫，將在伊布羅河上建立120座水壩，這些水壩會淹沒西班牙第二大河沿岸的數個城鎮、迫使數以萬計的農夫和漁民遷徙，並使河口三角洲的溼地被鹽侵蝕。亞若傑阿古多的分析研究則指出，這個計畫所帶來的環境、社會、經濟效益都微乎其微。

　　因此，52歲的亞若傑阿古多跨出校園，籌組了一個動員龐大的民間運動。最近幾個月來，有成千上萬的人聚集在巴塞隆納、馬德里與薩拉戈薩這三個城市抗議。在西班牙，這樣大規模的舉動是非常令人震驚的，畢竟從1939年到1975年，西班牙一直是由法西斯獨裁者佛朗哥將軍所統治。亞若傑阿古多說：「在1960、1970年代，我們是沒有自由的，根本沒有機會討論政策或是社會議題。今天我們所討論的議題，正是美國在1960、1970年代所關心的事項。」

培德洛•亞若傑阿古多（照片提供：環保金人獎主辦單位）

　　亞若傑阿古多是非營利組織「伊比利亞水資源計畫與管理協會」以及「新水文化基金會」的創辦人。今年4月14日，因為阻止國家水文計畫的成就，他成為「2003年環保金人獎」（2003 Goldman Environmental Prize）的六位得獎者之一。在計畫前往巴塞隆納進行另一項抗議活動的前一天，他在位於薩拉戈薩的家中，接受了Grist雜誌的訪問。

Economics professor Pedro Arrojo-Agudo, who teaches at the University of Zaragoza in Spain, is using his academic expertise to battle a monster: the National Hydrological Plan, a $25 billion project that would build 120 dams on the Ebro River. The dams would submerge entire towns along Spain's second-longest river, displace tens of thousands of rice and fish farmers, and poison the wetlands of the river delta with salt. Arrojo-Agudo's analyses have shown that the project makes little environmental, social, or economic sense.

So Arrojo-Agudo, 52, has stepped off campus to organize an enormous grassroots movement. In recent months, hundreds of thousands of people have gathered in Barcelona, Madrid, and Zaragoza to protest the project. This mass movement is particularly striking in Spain, where the fascist dictator Francisco Franco ruled from 1939 to his death in 1975. "In the 60s and 70s we had no freedom," says Arrojo-Agudo. "There was no discussion about policy or social issues. So the discussion that happened in the U.S. during those years is the same discussion we are having now."

Pedro Arrojo-Agudo.(Photo: Goldman Environmental Prize)

Arrojo-Agudo is the founder of the nonprofit Iberian Congress on Water Planning and Management and the Foundation for a New Culture of Water. On April 14, he was awarded one of six 2003 Goldman Environmental Prizes for his work to stop the National Hydrological Project. He spoke to Grist from his home in Zaragoza, Spain, the day before another planned protest in Barcelona.

答：當我在推演計算時，所得出的巨大負面結果讓我無法置信。當時我想，我一定是哪裡搞錯了，於是我拿結果與其他同事一起討論，但他們的結論也跟我一樣。在這同時，我剛好也有機會訪問受計畫影響的區域，跟當地人民聊了聊。

　　那些承受威脅的人們，沒有一個不是邊哭邊說的，這給了我很深很深的感觸。我是被合情合理的觀點，以及由衷而發的感觸說服的，讓我決定反對。

問：NHP（國家水文計畫）是完全由政府出資，還是私人公司也有參與？

答：你們美國人發明了兩個名詞：「不正當補貼」（perverse subsidies）與「豬肉桶政策」（pork barrel，意指政策綁樁）；西班牙的狀況正是如此。我們已經花了100年時間不斷建設，一開始確實是有需要，但現在已經變成了圖利大型企業──也就是豬肉桶。公共資金涵蓋了龐大的公共建設，他們雖然扛著為了公眾利益的名義，但最後你會發現所謂的公眾利益其實都只是私利。這有點像電影「唐人街」（Chinatown）：拿農民的利益當藉口，但背後真正的動機是都市人的投機生意和集約式農業企業。而西班牙這項計畫的最終真正目標，其實是地中海沿岸的觀光業發展。

　　當白人在這裡建造貯存場或開挖土地時，會舉辦會議，但卻不會讓原住民參加。為什麼不看重人命？過去那一世代的婦女完全閉口不提此事，而如果我們也一樣，那最後大家都會死去消失。

問：您已經號召了幾十萬人民上街頭抗議這項計畫，政府有回應了嗎？

答：政府的回應永遠是「要快！要快！現在不做，就永遠來不及了！」政府的反應一向很獨裁，總統相信每件事情都可以用武力解決。他們只會說：「這些老百姓只是一盤散沙。」所以我常說，「權力是最難戒的毒品」。今天在國會不管誰是多數黨、是左翼還是右翼當政，結果都一樣──人民永遠是輸家。

培德洛•亞若傑阿古多揭發一條滿是問題的河川。（攝影：Robert Roll）

　　國家水文計畫需要歐盟的經濟支援（Grist註：至少有40%的資金是來自於歐盟），於是我們從西班牙一路示威遊行到布魯塞爾，要求歐盟不要資助這項計畫，因為這筆錢會導致毀滅。這可是第一次有人到布魯塞爾不是去要錢的（笑）。歐盟執行委員會在最近這三年都凍結了這筆資金──這可是史無前例的！但（西班牙）政府在歐委會的影響力依然非常強大。如果歐委會能夠完全停止資助這項西班牙計畫，所有事情的推動都會變得更容易些。

問：您還有另一項光榮事蹟：在歐洲發起的全新保育活動──新水文化。可以跟我們談談這項活動嗎？

答：直到現在，人們還在不斷的蓋運河，地下蓄水層只被視做水資源礦產。這些行為或觀念，與生命、土地認同、或是其他許多我們文化中早已被淡忘的價值觀都扯不上關連。我們有必要將「水」當成供給生命的生態系統來重新省思。我無法想像沒有萊茵河塞納河的巴黎、或沒有伊布羅河的薩拉戈薩。當你講到自己的家鄉時，難道不會先從主要市區和河流講起嗎？我們從要求尊重少數人民不再恐懼洪氾的權利開始（進行我們的運動），接著進一步擴展我們的論點，爭取一般公民有要求尊重河流、尊重歷史與尊重景觀的權利。西班牙有個詩人說過，「河流是地景景觀的靈魂」。所以，我們要求的是同時改變政策和文化雙方面。

　　我們結合了貿易聯盟、生態運動、被這個計畫影響的居民、城市居民，來自左翼和右翼的大量群眾集結。歐洲從來沒有過這樣大型的活動。我們穿越法國遊行到布魯塞爾當天，共有1萬5千人或走路、或騎腳踏車、或搭巴士、或坐火車來到布魯塞爾；那天下著雨──貨真價實的傾盆大雨，我從沒被淋得這麼濕過！這是很不可思議的！「新水文化」的目標真的達成了。

問：您有任何忠告要給其他對抗大型水文計畫的人們嗎？

答：通常人民都覺得他們沒有辦法對抗政府的巨大權力。在西班牙，人民甚至記得（佛朗哥專政時期）被軍方拖出家門的景況。所以，我要說的第一點就是：「你是對的。不只是從人類觀點，從經濟、環境或社會觀點來看，你都是對的。」一旦教授級專家來到現場（告訴人們）說：你們是對的，這（計畫）對你們根本沒有好處，只是用來圖利一小群人罷了，他們就會覺得自己突然堅強許多。這些小社區會覺得自己受到大眾認同，他們的問題不再是少數人的問題，而是大多數人的問題──大到整個社會必須正視、加以處理。

問：獲得此獎對您有什麼意義嗎？

答：這個獎屬於很多很多人，我想把這個獎牌和每個城鎮、每個村莊的人民分享，所以我有很多行程得走了。我希望利用這個獎項，在因政府操弄而分裂的人民之間，以及在西班牙政府與歐洲委員會之間，搭建起溝通的橋樑。有一句西班牙話是這麼說的：Hablando se entiende la gente──「藉由談話，可以瞭解人們」。或許有一大堆的新技術與可能性可以促成良好的管理，但「對話」永遠是美好未來的關鍵。

Pedro Arrojo-Agudo:
When I made the calculations, the results were so extremely negative that I didn't believe it. I thought, "I am wrong, there is some mistake in here." But I consulted with other colleagues, and their results were the same. At the same time, I was visiting the area that would be affected and talking to the people.

The people who are under this threat, they cannot talk to you without weeping, and seeing that gave me a very, very deep feeling. So I was convinced from the reasonable, rational point of view and also from the heart.

Grist: Is the NHP funded entirely by the government or are private companies involved as well?

Arrojo-Agudo: In the United States, you have invented the expressions "perverse subsidies" and "pork barrel," no? In Spain, it is the same. We've spent a century building and building, and at first it was needed, but now it's for the benefit of some big companies, for the pork barrel. Public funds cover big infrastructures, they're built in the name of public interest, but finally you find that the public interest is really the private interest. It's a little bit like the movie "Chinatown": The pretext is the benefits for the farmer, but the real reason is urban speculation and intensive agribusiness. In Spain, the real, final objective of this project is tourism development on the Mediterranean coast.

Grist: You've helped rally hundreds of thousands of people to protest the project. Is the government responding?

Arrojo-Agudo:The response has been "Quick! Quick! It's now or never!" The reaction of the government has been very authoritarian, the president thinks everything has to be solved by force. They just say, "These people aren't in solidarity with progress." I used to say the hardest drug in the world is power. No matter who has the majority in Parliament -- it doesn't matter if it's left or right wing -- the people lose.

Pedro Arrojo-Agudo exposed a river of problems.(Photo: Robert Roll)

The project does need money from the European Union [Editor's note: At least 40 percent of the funding would come from the E.U.] So we marched from Spain to Brussels to ask the E.U. not to give money to this project, that it was money for destruction. That was the first time anyone has gone to Brussels and asked for no money. [Laughs.] The European Commission has blocked funds for the last three years -- that's unprecedented -- but the influence of the [national] governments is still very strong on the commission. If the commission does stop funding the Spanish plan, everything will change more easily from that moment on.

Grist: You've been credited with creating a new conservation movement in Europe, the New Water Culture. Can you tell me something about that?

Arrojo-Agudo: Until now, we have seen the rebirth of canals, and aquifers being treated like mines of water. There's not any relationship with life, with territorial identity, with so many other values that are in our culture but have been forgotten. We have to recover a way of thinking and looking at water as an ecosystem of life. I can't think about Paris without the Seine, or about Zaragoza without the Ebro. If you think about your town or village, you will talk about the main square and the river, no? We began [our campaign] by asking for respect for the human rights of minorities threatened with flooding. Then our arguments became wider, for the right of the citizens in general to ask for respect for rivers, for our history and landscapes. There is a poet in Spain who says the river is the soul of the landscape. So we're asking for both a change in policy and a change in culture.

We've involved trade unions, the ecological movement, people affected by the project, people in cities, a huge coalition of people from the left and right wing. We've never seen this kind of movement in Europe. When we marched to Brussels through France, we had 15,000 people arriving in Brussels by foot, bike, bus, and train. It was raining that day, absolutely flooding, and I have never been so wet. It was incredible. The New Water Culture had really arrived.

Grist: What advice do you have for other people fighting large water projects?

Arrojo-Agudo:Often people don't feel able to confront the huge power of the government. In Spain, people even remember being driven out of their homes by the army [during the Franco dictatorship]. So the first thing to say to them is, you are right, not just from the human point of view, but for economic, environmental, and social reasons. Once professors come and tell [the people] they are right, that [the project] is not profitable for you but only for a small group of people, they suddenly feel themselves to be much stronger. These small communities feel themselves recognized by society, and instead of the problem of the minority it becomes the problem of the majority, something society has to deal with.

Grist: What does this prize mean to you?

Arrojo-Agudo: I feel this prize is a prize for a lot of people. I want to offer the prize to those people town by town, village by village, so I have a lot of little trips to make. I would like to use it to build bridges between people who have been divided by the government, and between the Spanish government and the European Commission. There is an expression in Spanish, Hablando se entiende la gente: By talking, you understand the people. There are a lot of new technologies and possibilities for good management, and dialogue is the key to a more positive future.

■有關Grist Magazine：Grist Magazine是一線上環境雜誌，總部設在美國西雅圖。Grist Magazine嘗試以詼諧、幽默的角度來切入環境議題與行動，希望能在傳遞環境資訊之餘，也能夠娛樂讀者。

■本系列專訪中對答的部份，（）內的文字表示為原作者自行補充，以補足受訪者的談話內容。（Grist註）表示為Grist編輯群所加上的註解。（編按）表示為本報編輯部註解。